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Hi Ralph
The post by about muscle types in power lifters and weightlifters
being predominantly type IIa and not much type IIb work against your
argument that adaption to type IIa would need to take place on the track.
By training for extended periods using these weight training techniques the
muscle fibres were adapting to type IIa in any event. In other words the
Type IIb muscles developed where developing mitochondrial growth to respond
to the increased metabolic demand of training. Because as you sate the type
IIb muscles have basically enough energy to support themselves at rest they
were growing mitochondria to deal with the intensity of training. This
adaption will happen with continued weight training.
With regards to my question about energy systems I was getting into little
circles, however I thought that on the slide show that Dan posted the
Lactate to Pyruvate cycle was shown intramuscular as well as extramuscular
(namely the Cori cycle in the liver). I may have got the wrong end of the
stick of course, but I thought that it showed this happening in the
mitochondria. Back to text books it a long ago that I read that stuff.
I understand from the article reference you posted the point they make about
efficiency and the transfer of lactate threshold from bike to running and
swimming did not happen at the same level, although in my opinion lactate
threshold in the trained athlete would have been much higher in the new
sport than an untrained athlete and the adaptions would proceed faster (both
from a body point of view and the likely hood that a trained athlete would
apply the high intensity training to the new form).
"From Seiler's Time Course of Training adaptations
http://home.
"When the cyclists were divided into a "low" and "high" LT groups (66% vs
81% of maximal oxygen consumption)
differed considerable in the years of *cycling training* (2.7 compared to
5.1 years on average). However, they did not differ in years of *endurance
training* (7-8 years of running, rowing etc.) When the low cycling LT and
high cycling LT groups were asked to perform a lactate threshold test while
running on a treadmill, the two groups were no longer different. Measured
while running, the lactate threshold in both groups averaged over 80%
of VO2max. Similarly, if you are a runner and decide to add swimming
and cycling
to your training and compete in triathlons, you will immediately recognize
that your running fitness does not immediately transfer to the bike, and of
course not to the water! "
Your argument from this appears to be that if adaption in one event happens
that this does not transfer to another, thus improved efficiency in the gym
may not transfer to the track, yet I continue to contend that Brian would
benefit from both types of training, so long as the intensity of weight
training did not interfere with the track work. You could then taper the
work load into the week of the competition, a bit like you would taper for a
power lifting meeting with very little training in the week of the key
races. In my opinion the track work is allowing the development of
efficiency on the track to be enhanced by increased strength developed in
the gym and by training this for a long enough period the adaption to type
IIa will be enhanced. Having spent the time to develop the strength to let
the strength go away (I remember reading studies after a 6 month training
period pointing to a 4 week drop of of strength to levels way below gain and
similar to base line levels).
You also suggest running stairs as an alternate strength gaining technique.
Are gains accumulated by running stadium stairs similar enough to running on
a flat track to gain the efficiency you seek, will they transfer better than
weight training gains or are stairs different enough to track running to
have the same level of transfer as gym work?
If Brian's race is this week I would probably not lift this week after
Tuesday.
Regards
Nick Tatalias
Johannesburg
South Africa
On 20/01/2008, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.
>
> --- Nick Tatalias <nick.tatalias@
> wrote:
>
> > Ralph
> >
> > I'm not sure that I made myself clear in the posts,
> > no-one is asking Brian
> > not to do time on the track and I'm certain that his
> > coach would be doing
> > intervals, however I'm fairly certain that since
> > Brian has worked hard
> > developing strength in the off season that has
> > contributed well to improved
> > running, and that he should maintain that strength
> > in manner that best
> > relates to the use of type II muscle fibre.
>
> I did understand that you were advocating that Brian
> supplement his track work with weight lifting.
>
> The point I was trying to make was that instead of
> spending time in the gym lifting weights 1 or 2
> sessions a week, that time should be spent on the
> track or running hills. The energy used for weight
> lifting should be used to run the hills, as Paul
> suggested, or running up stadium stairs as I have seen
> other athletes doing. In this way any strength gained
> through running hills or stairs will be more sports
> specific.
>
> If Brian has enough energy to lift weights after a
> track training session or on his recovery day then, in
> my opinion, he is not training hard enough when he is
> on the track or running the hills.
>
> Many years ago (mid 1980s) there was an excellent
> article in Bicycling magazine which stated that "Too
> many athletes do not train hard enough on their hard
> days and train too hard on their easy days".
>
> I guess it comes down to a matter of coaching
> philosophy as much as anything else.
>
> In my opinion, the most important aspect of training
> is adequate recovery between training sessions. This
> point has also been emphasized in other
> posts,recently, concerning training load and how much
> is too much. Anything that interferes with recovery
> detracts from the benefit of the previous training
> session and diminishes the training intensity for the
> next training session.
>
> Professional athletes and elite amateurs (with the
> luxury of sponsorship and therefore no need to do
> anything other than train), have plenty of time to
> rest, recover etc.
>
> Most amateur athletes, such as Brian, have other
> responsibilities, such as class, work, etc which adds
> to the stress of their lives and compromises full
> recovery. These other activities also limit the time
> to train as well using precious energy resources. The
> stress of these activities has to be added to the
> overall stress of training and need to be taken into
> account when designing a training program.
>
> In the off season resistance training is a good
> alternative and a good change of pace. During the
> pre-season training period the intensity of training
> at an individuals chosen specialty has to be
> significantly higher than it will be during the
> competitive season.
>
> If your goal is to be the fastest man or woman on the
> track then every effort, in my opinion, should be
> spent on the track developing speed by running short
> high intensity intervals or building running strength
> by running hills or stairs.
>
> > My in season programme last somewhere between 20 and
> > 45 minutes. Twice or
> > three times per week depending on how close to the
> > race day.
>
> I, believe that Brian stated that his first race is
> March 25 if I am not mistaken. So we are still
> discussing the pre-season training sessions.
>
> Once the training season is over and the competitive
> season starts it is even more important that all
> energy should be geared towards the race and non
> running days should be dedicated to recovery.
> Resistance training on these days would, in my
> opinion, hinder full recovery.
>
> > With regards to anaerobic vrs aerobic usage, these
> > are interesting, however
> > I often wonder how many of the aerobic markers
> > relate to the body trying to
> > catch up the anaerobic expenditure of energy. In
> > the 100m sprint for
> > instance in a 10 second burst, who would imagine
> > that aerobic systems are
> > challenged at all, but 20 odd percent of bio markers
> > indicate aerobic work -
> > perhaps due to the body catching up with the
> > anaerobic muscle performance, I
> > would have thought the same for the 400, except that
> > because the race goes
> > on longer there is longer for the aerobic systems to
> > get involved in
> > processing the anaerobic work of the muscles. The
> > reason I believe this is
> > that in order to move the body body powerfully and
> > fast the work must
> > involve significant contributions from type II a & b
> > muscles. Type IIb have
> > very little aerobic contribution, but would load the
> > systems with products
> > from anaerobic energy systems. Type IIa muscle are
> > much more capable of
> > converting anaerobic products and using glycogen for
> > restoring the ATP
> > resulting in markers of apparent aerobic
> > respiration. Any comments?
>
> I think that their is a major flaw in the above
> statements.
>
> I think it is important here to review some points
> about energy production in muscle fibers, as I
> understand it. And please excuse me if I am being
> redundant but I think that it is important that I do
> this to make my point.
>
> All muscle fibers, (I,IIA,IIB,) produce some energy
> anaerobically.
>
> - The first step in energy production is called
> alactic anaerobic energy production.
>
> This involves PCR and ATP which are present at the
> initiation of an activity. There is ATP in small
> amounts available in the muscle fiber and this allows
> the initiation of muscle contraction. As this is
> depleted the PCR regenerates the ATP. This occurs in
> all muscle fibers (I,IIA,IIB,) . There is no Pyruvic
> acid produced nor is there lactate production.
>
> There is generally enough to PCR to last about 5-7
> seconds.
> All muscle fibers (I,IIA,IIB) go through this step.
>
> - The next step in energy production is the use of
> glucose to maintain the supply of ATP. This is, as
> you know, the glycolytic pathway.
>
> This also begins at the initiation of activity but it
> takes a little longer than the alactic energy
> production. (one reason for warming up before an
> activity).
>
> During this phase, as was discussed in an earlier
> post, the end result is ATP plus either pyruvic acid
> or lactate.
>
> All muscle fibers (I,IIA,IIB) also go through this
> step.
>
> -The next step is where we apparently we differ in our
> understanding of the energy producing process.
>
> This is known as the fork in the road. In the presence
> of adequate O2 pyruvate is produced and this enters
> the Krebs cycle located in the mitochondria.
> In the absence of adequate O2 lactate is produced.
>
> Lactate cannot be utilized in any muscle cell unless
> it is re-converted to Pyruvate and becomes part of the
> Krebs cycle.
>
> In order to further metabolize Lactate it must either
> be re formulated into glucose via the Cori cycle or it
> must be re-formulated into Pyruvate and enter the
> Krebs cycle.
>
> Muscle cells do not have the necessary mechanism to
> run the Cori cycle. There are other tissues that can
> do this and the primary organ is the liver.
>
> It is important to note at this point that even in
> "anaerobic conditions" the muscle cells do have a
> small amount of stored Oxygen attached to myoglobin.
> This allows for some aerobic chemical reactions even
> in the face of relative "anaerobic conditions".
>
> As stated previously IIB fibers only have enough
> mitochondria to maintain the fiber at rest. For this
> reason IIB fibers are for practical reason incapable
> of utilizing lactate for energy. The lactate in these
> fibers must exit the fiber and enter the blood steam
> (how else would you account or the rising blood
> lactate levels during high intensity work?).
>
> With appropriate training stimulus IIB fibers become
> IIA fibers. What distinguishes the two fiber types is
> mitochondrial density. IIA fibers have many
> mitochondria and IIB have minimal mitochondria.
>
> IIA fibers are in fact aerobic fibers. They have the
> same ability to produce energy aerobically as do Type
> I fibers.
>
> What then distinguishes Type I fiber from IIA is their
> innervation (slow twitch vs fast twitch) and
> mitochondrial density. Type I have considerably more
> mitochondria than do IIA.
>
> So both I and IIA fibers can utilize lactate in the
> mitochondria for energy production.
>
> The best way, in my opinion, to increase the IIA
> fiber's mitochondrial density is through high
> intensity interval training on the track.
>
> As pointed out by Jamie's post in OL and Power lifters
> have a preponderance of type II fibers are IIA with very
> few IIB. I suspect this occurs with many years of
> long intense workouts. (see Seiler's Time Course of
> Training adaptations
> http://home.
>
> However I believe that specificity of training is
> extremely important. That was why I stated that Brian
> needs to turn his lifting strength into running
> strength.
>
> > I agree that intervals are good, some good studies
> > on that
> > topic were just recently posted. I'm still convinced
> > that appropriate time in the gym is
> > important. If Brian is going to run the 400m hurdle
> > later this year, I'm
> > not sure that he should drop to much explosion from
> > his work out and
> > continue with speed work. If the 800m indoor season
> > is part of development
> > for that race, then the whole season needs to be
> > kept in balance.
>
> In my opinion the best way for Brian to maintain his
> explosiveness would be to do a lot of 30 meter
> starting intervals from the blocks. Specificity in
> training is extremely important.
>
> I would also imagine that if Brian's main goal is to
> win the 400 m events he would also include training
> for the 400 m event while running the indoor season.
>
> If I understood Brian's reason for running the 800 m
> was to increase his endurance (more mitochondria) so
> that he would have a better kick at the end of his 400
> m event. If I am correct, then Brian needs to improve
> his lactate training and not necessarily his strength.
>
> > Best Regards
> > Nick Tatalias
> > Johannesburg
>
> Nick I enjoy this dialogue and am looking forward to
> your comments.
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct USA
>
>
>
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