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Hi Ralph
Can I be in on this money racket you have what with the exchange rate 2c
might come in handy :-)
Came across this sentence in the Essentials of Strength Training and
Conditioning.
"The increase in aerobic capacity of skeletal muscle that occurs after
aerobic endurance training is experienced by both fast and slow twitch
muscle fibres. Slow twitch fibres have an inherently higher aerobic
capacity than fast twitch fibres and are preferentially recruited during
aerobic activity. However, if the intensity is sufficient, as in repeat
800-m intervals, fast twitch fibres (especially type IIb fibres) also make a
significant contribution to the effort. Under such conditions, their
aerobic capacity also increases with training."
This has me thinking about the following,
1. Type IIb muscle is used in 800m high intensity activities, if they are
trained their contribution can be the difference maker.
2. Although aerobic type training interferes with strength development
compared to strength development on its own, both can be developed overtime
and if ultimate strength is not your goal then it is worth trying. If type
IIb muscle improve their endurance function, then instead of reducing the
amount of myosin as you suggest, perhaps appropriate training may
increase mitochondrial function or intracellular removal of H+ through
lactate, and carbonate systems may be achieved which leaves the thicker
myosin to execute highly forceful and strong exhibits of strength that may
be required for later 400m hurdles.
3. If running 800m intervals improves this functioning then Brian, by by
running the 800m indoor season, may have intuitively chosen the correct
training for his 400m hurdles which requires fast twitch muscle to endure to
the end of the race to come off the hurdles and accelerate. It seems that
this is the area of concern for Brian.
4. Some Rugby players may be running 800m intervals soon :-)
I agree that appropriate training intervals may be better than lifting, but
I am still struck by the Weyand Study and the demonstration that
strength improves top speed running. However to increase explosive endurance
if such a concept exists, I have used in the past is to do an 80% of 1RM max
clean every 30 seconds for 15 to 20 minutes (time is set before I start)
that is 31 or 41 reps. This does not give the muscles time to recover
properly but the weight is significantly challenging to clean or explode
that you must use type IIb muscles also. This type of workout though should
be kept to off season or pre-season as it can compromise your running. Well
it will compromise mine but then I'm not in the kind of shape that allows
for that kind of concurrent training.
In a completely separate discussion with one of the trainees in our gym, who
has accompanied expeditions to Everest and to some high Andean mountains as
the medical doctor, as well as many trips to Kilimanjaro (the highest
mountain in Africa). His comment was that it seems that marathon trained
runners seemed to struggle more with altitude than other people (no studies
anecdotal). I speculate it is because of the lack of oxygen the slow twitch
muscles are not able to deal with anaerobic conditions and suffer. People
trained for high intensity have bodies better able to deal with the
anaerobic environment at altitude. Why do I mention this, I am speculating
that high intensity intervals may develop not only type IIa muscle fibres
but type IIb also. The Tabata (weight training) protocols not only develop
aerobic capacity but anaerobic capacity and power, and whether its on track,
with hills, with weight vest or in the gym, may be worth including in the
training. I would suggest that in Brian's case running lots of miles may
not be useful.
Comments?
Best Regards
Nick Tatalias
Johannesburg
South Africa
On 17/01/2008, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.
>
>
> --- itsmeyoungb <howmanyukno@
>
> > Ok..Let me try to throw my two cents in...
>
> Brian, I would also like to add two cents of my own to
> this interesting dialogue.
>
> I do agree with Paul's assessment and his suggestions.
> I have no experience in coaching runners however I do
> have extensive experience in coaching cyclists.
>
> I have never been one to accept on blind faith a
> training regimen of any kind without asking the
> question "why" should this work better than some other
> regimen.
>
> One of the biggest problems I came across frequently,
> while coaching cyclists, was athletes who did a lot of
> hard training but very little "smart" training.
>
> Many of the cyclists put in a lot of miles every week
> with little benefit because they were not riding the
> miles with a purpose. They putting in a lot of miles
> because that was what the professional riders were
> doing but there was no rhyme or reason to their
> program.
>
> The same can be said for weight training and running.
> lots of running and lots of lifting does not guarantee
> faster times unless there is specific goals within the
> training.
>
> You have done a lot of work over the past months
> building your strength through weight lifting. Now
> you have to convert that lifting strength into running
> strength.
>
> I have always found it best to break down an activity
> into its components and try to analyze how to best
> improve the various components and have them work well
> together.
>
> I would like to first analyze your strength regimen.
> When you did your lifting or squatting you probably
> used relatively heavy weights with which you were able
> to perform 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps each.
>
> Each set took about 1 minute or less and you rested
> about 2-3 minutes between sets. That makes for a
> total of 36-48 reps of a particular activity over
> 10-12 minutes per session.
>
> Now lets take a look at how you plan on using this
> strength. You are going to run 800 meters as fast as
> you can.
>
> I have no idea how long an average stride is when
> running a 800 meter race so I will, for the sake of
> this discussion, estimate that you will have to take
> 350-500 strides from start to finish. That is 350-500
> reps in about 2 minutes.
>
> Nothing you did in the gym can replicate this
> activity.
>
> Now lets take a peek into the muscles you have
> produced with all that work. Your resistance training
> helped you develop a lot of large Type IIB fibers
> which contain very few mitochondria. Great for short
> powerful efforts but easily fatigued.
>
> What do you need in order to perform 350-500 reps in
> two minutes. Lots of Type IIA fibers loaded with
> glucose burning mitochondria. To accommodate these
> mitochondria the cell needs to sacrifice some
> intracellular fibrils (thus sacrificing some
> strength).
>
> These are the type of fibers that Nick was referring
> to in his discussion.
>
> This 800 m effort will also produce a great deal of H
> ions which need to be buffered and a large amount of
> lactate which needs to be cleared as well as require
> an increased Oxygen delivery capacity. This in part
> gets back to the discussion we have had in the past
> two weeks concerning buffering capacity and lactate.
>
> The conversion of IIB fibers to IIA fibers takes time
> and the proper training stimulus. This is were the
> proper interval training on the track as well as the
> hill running that Paul alluded to comes into play.
>
> The intervals and hill climbing, if done properly are
> very taxing on your system as well as requiring a
> great deal of energy. Six weeks may not be enough
> time to allow all your newly acquired IIB fibers to
> adapt and transform themselves into IIA fibers.
>
> Besides transforming you muscle fibers you also have
> to increase your hearts capacity to pump more blood to
> your muscles. You also have to upgrade your vascular
> system to handle the increase cardiac output as well
> as the capillary system to deliver the increase blood
> volume to these muscles.
>
> You have to increase the buffering capacity both
> inside the muscle fibers as well as in the blood
> stream. Only the proper training regime will do this.
>
> Resistance training with its short work intervals (1
> min or less for a set of 8- 10 reps) and long rest
> intervals (2-3) minutes does not require a large
> buffering capacity nor does it require and large
> cardiac output and the IIB fibers have relatively
> fewer capillaries.
>
> You mention the Tabata protocol in the gym. If I
> understand the protocol correctly from my reading, it
> is designed to improve aerobic capacity and probably
> should best be incorporated on the track and not the
> gym.
>
> After a very good warm up (10+ minutes- or until you
> have worked up a good sweat), you run for 20 seconds
> (150 + meters) recover for 10 and repeat this x 8 for
> a total of 4 minutes then cool down for 10 minutes.
>
> If you are unable to complete 8 sets, this indicates
> that you started out to fast. Your last rep should
> be just as fast if not faster than your first rep.
>
> This type of work will produce a tremendous amount of
> lactate, put tremendous strain on you cardiovascular
> as well as pulmonary system, as well as tax you
> buffering capacity.
>
> This should be done at the end of you daily training
> and preferably before a rest day. Initially this
> should be done once a week.
>
> This is just one of many different types of interval
> training that can be used to transform you IIB fibers
> to IIA fibers. Your coach probably has many other
> types of intervals in his arsenal.
>
> While working out in the gym may seem to make sense it
> is important to remember that any energy expended in
> the gym is energy not available for track work. Any
> muscle fibers (IIB) built through resistance training
> is useless to an 800 meter runner unless the majority
> are converted to IIA fibers.
>
> As a college student you must have many other things
> to do besides train and recover. During your pre-race
> period and during your racing season you have to train
> smart and learn to allocate your precious energy and
> time to your primary goal, in this case improving your
> 800 meter time and not your lifting strength.
>
> You state that you do not have the benefit of a coach
> who both trains runners and knows how to train you in
> resistance training. You have the benefit of Paul's
> advice who obviously has been training as a runner for
> years and has experience in the gym.
>
> As Paul alluded, there is no consensus in the running
> field concerning the role of strength training. The
> same can be said for swimming, cycling and rowing.
>
> Individuals whose primary focus is resistance training
> will argue that this type of training can benefit any
> sport and some will say the heavier the lifting the
> greater the benefit.
>
> Ask them why they don't take up running to improve
> their lifting. The reason is they are afraid that
> they will convert their powerful IIB fibers to IIA
> fibers and in the process of gaining endurance lose
> some strength.
>
> So much for my two cents. Two cents doesn't buy much
> these days.
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct USA
> .
>
> > I am a 400/800 type guy. Although it is true that I
> > need a certain
> > amount of mileage, too much will kill me
> > results.This summer, I did
> > 25 miles a week on the road,and it absolulely was
> > somewhat of a
> > detriment to my progress.Although I had better
> > aerobic capacity, I
> > had lost a great bit of speed. This was evident as I
> > am a 48 sec 400m
> > runner and I could only mustard 53 seconds at the
> > beginning of
> > october.I am just now getting my speed back.
> >
> > Something else to remember is I am still mainly a
> > 400 hurdler. I am
> > running the 800 indoors to help the last 200 meters
> > of my race for
> > the 400 hurdles. I think Paul understood it as I
> > only run the 800 and
> > I am sorry if I was unclear about that. You post is
> > not at all harsh
> > as I am learning just as you are.
>
> > This situation is difficult for me because my
> > college doesnt not have
> > a coach conditioned in this area of running and
> > lifting and most of
> > the athletes have to come up with their own strength
> > and conditioning
> > programs. In my case is could be hit or miss because
> > I never know if
> > Im doing the right thing. But In my humble opinion I
> > believe the
> > strength I have built up needs to be maintained as
> > last year, I had a
> > training partner who lifting like he ran the 100
> > meters and he was
> > about to run 1:52 for the 800 meters. My genetics
> > and body type may
> > be different but what is the point of building great
> > deals of
> > strength and power and not using it if can
> > beneficial. The power lies
> > in my situation is to balance the two without much
> > weight gain as I
> > am very very prone to weight gain.
> >
> > Those are just my two cents. Here is my program form
> > the week it will
> > allow everyone to see what I am doing. Heated debate
> > is the only way
> > to get to the truth of close to it, so keep
> > everything coming.
> >
> > Monday January 14th
> >
> > Hang Clean and Jerk at 140lbs 3 reps and 5 sets
> > Back squats x 5 at 275lbs,4 at 280lbs,3 at 285lbs,3
> > at 290lbs,2 at
> > 295lbs.
> > Dumbell Bench Press 5 reps x 3 sets with 80lbs
> > dumbells
> > Dumbell Lat Row 6 reps x 3 sets with 65lbs dumbells.
> >
> > Wednesday January 16th
> > Power snatch + overhead squat 3reps x 5 sets at
> > 115lbs
> > Barbell Bench Press 3reps x 5 sets a 190 lbs
> > Good Mornings 5reps x5sets at 150 lbs
> > Lat Pull Down 6x4
> >
> > I know I lift a little heavier than must 800 runners
> > but is just a
> > natural things for me. I havent really stopped
> > making progress and I
> > am not really gaining weight. So you guys can pick
> > that apart. I
> > appreciate the criticism.
> >
> > Brian.Archield
> > Tampa,Florida USA
> >
> >
> > --- In Supertraining@
> "Nick
> > Tatalias"
> > <nick.tatalias@
> > >
> > > Hi Paul
> > >
> > > Thanks for this post, I guess be specific is the
> > lesson here, I
> > take your
> > > point. Being some one who only ever sprinted
> > about 60m to score on
> > an
> > > interception, I don't always get the middle and
> > long distance
> > stuff. Rugby
> > > players are very different to this despite needing
> > to sustain high
> > intensity
> > > sprints for about 90 seconds (probability of
> > scoring peaks at about
> > 90
> > > seconds of possession). My coach used to train a
> > top level (South
> > African
> > > champion standard) boxer also and again we adapted
> > from the
> > traditional road
> > > training for him to short sprints (50 m) timed for
> > 3 minute round
> > with and
> > > gym work as the mainstay - of course they went to
> > the boxing
> > coaches for
> > > technical training. The problem with a sample of
> > one is that the
> > athlete may
> > > just be a dam good fighter irrespective of what we
> > did, yet when he
> > went to
> > > one off to one of the top fight trainers and back
> > to traditional
> > road work
> > > training he seemed to lack the thrust and power
> > and his career
> > tapered
> > > off. I was trying to use that experience
> > (learning from other) and
> > apply
> > > this to Brian's situation. The problem is always
> > making sure that
> > the
> > > athlete is progressing optimally and Brian would
> > have to judge that
> > for
> > > himself.
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > > Nick Tatalias
> > > Johannesburg
> > > South Africa
> >
>
>
>
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