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Hi Chad,
First off, I didn't "name names" because it's not about trying to correct
anyone, but simply exchanging intellectual concepts. On that note, it seems
we're discussing two separate, but intertwined concepts. My post was brought
about to shed light on proprioception and balance (two sides of the same
coin), because there was some well meaning information being shared that
wasn't totally accurate. For instance, I read a post that inferred the inner
ear is the major component of proprioception and this was the impetus to my
original comment. Anyways, the often overlooked bottom line is that
sensation mediates proprioception; so, people need to actually "tune-in"
with their bodies or any form of exercise won't achieve the desired results.
That said, here's my thought on your latest post.
Re: lack of balance
We are in agreement that lack of flexibility and/or muscle imbalances force
people to compensate during movements. Also, the Hunchback of Notre Dame
could use a wobble board and flop around without improving his
balance/posture. However, that's only because the boards are momentum based,
don't have a fixed center of axis, and inhibit his feedforward nervous
system from activating properly. It was also Mel Siff's complaint about
balance boards, but not all balance boards are born alike (Mel never got to
see the "next generation" of boards).
Re: precisely coordinated motor output
We disagree, but perhaps its semantics. Most of us are born perfect and
society mucks it up from that point on. One thing to keep in mind is that
mobility precedes stability or in other words practically all the health
professionals such orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists, chiropractors,
and even rolfers (darn!) are looking at the problem from the incorrect
vantage point. My point being that everyone is trying to find stability, but
it's not a fixed or held position and it comes about through movement
(unless we're talking about broken bones and then you need stability first).
In PT school they teach that one must be stable prior to movement, but
that's in direct contradiction to how we learn to move as babies! So there
is likely quite a bit of merit to unstable surface training (even wobble
boards) if used correctly and not as a blunt instruments for all forms of
balance training.
Re: research articles
I don't mean to sound sacrilegious, but most research studies aren't worth
the paper their printed on. In fact, most are performed in a scientific
vacuum that's not applicable to real world activities. If instability
training can improve muscle imbalances/flexibil
indirectly improve someone's ability to create a highly explosive force. By
definition this type of unstable training decreases the ability to generate
force at that specific moment (Behm's studies show this rather well);
however, the positive results of long-term unstable surface training on
explosion have never been done, at least to my knowledge. After all, why
would they perform such studies when it doesn't fit the paradigm being used
(see precisely coordinated motor output above). The real question would be
does this type of training work more effectively than traditional methods
and that's likely a case-by-case scenario (everyone learns differently)
p.s. the best thing for a knee injury is to correct the ankle and/or hip
dysfunction that is usually involved in most cases. Again, many of the
"experts" tend to isolate the knee, but that's missing the BIG picture.
Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer, CES
Boulder, CO
============
_____
From: Supertraining@
On Behalf Of Chad Scheitel
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:22 AM
To: Supertraining@
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: Proprioceptive training
Todd,
I believe you, and maybe even Maria, need a little
more clarification of what I was saying. First off I
obviously did not give her a thorough explanation of
how the body works in regards to balance and stability
which was why I directed her to some of the other
posts. However, though I haven't had a chance to see
nor read all of your references I believe I can use
some of the points you made to better clarify myself.
"The maintenance of standing balance is a
complex task."
Yes, it is! So is the balance in a lunge position or
squat position, even when not on an unstable surface.
See the problem is most people, especially those who
have suffered knee injuries, cannot nor never have
been able to do a squat or a lunge in the proper
position and using the proper muscles (relaxing
antagonists and contracting agonists). To force them
to do it on an unstable surface can lead to them to
doing it even more incorrect, but because they have
managed to offset the forces properly with the
opposing limbs, they still manage to balance in a
terrible body position (I have seen this one hundreds
of times over).
"and the outcome is precisely coordinated motor
output"
Unfortunately, most people have developed not so
precisely coordinated motors outputs throughout their
lives and end up getting injuries that result from
them. This is why health professionals such as
orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists,
chiropractors, and rolfers are as busy as they
currently are today.
"For example, electromyographic (EMG)studies have
shown that, in order to permit explosive agonist
force, the antagonist is not necessarily active
during highly dynamic movements, but that it
automatically contracts at the end range of
motion to prevent joint injury and ensure
balanced tension around the joint (1)."
If you have more than one research article that
clearly proves that "instability training" can
actually improve someone's ability to create a highly
explosive agonist force and antagonist relaxation, and
also a more properly timed contraction at the end
range of motion better than actually doing explosive,
highly dynamic movements in the proper body positions
I would very much like to read them. Don't forget
that doing iso-metrics and eccentrics can also be
considered explosive and are great at teaching proper
body position, or proprioception (Verkshoshansky,
Special Strength Training).
Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS
Minneapolis, MN
--- todd langer <regnalt@comcast. <mailto:regnalt%
> Maria,
>
> Here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote on the topic.
> Some of the information
> in the previous posts is inaccurate and this might
> help you out. Please, let
> me know if you'd like the references.
>
> "The maintenance of standing balance is a complex
> task, involving the
> hierarchal interaction of three major sensory input
> systems; with visual and
> vestibular (semicircular canals) sub-serving the
> somatosensory (myofascia,
> joints, cutaneous receptors) (3, 4) and the outcome
> is precisely coordinated
> motor output. This process is continually monitored
> by the 6th sense of
> proprioception or the perception of position,
> posture and movement of the
> body in relation to our environment (5). The joints
> and the surrounding
> myofascia have sensory receptors (mechanoreceptors)
> that are in constant
> dialogue with the central nervous system (CNS) (5,
> 6, 7, 8). This
> proprioceptive mechanism is part of the body's
> feedback-feedforwar
> that must routinely compensate for unpredictable
> postural perturbations and
> provide adequate neuromuscular adaptability (2, 5,
> 8).
>
> The more maneuverable an engineering system or
> biological structure, the
> increased feedback it requires to maintain stability
> (8). Increasing your
> proprioceptive awareness will decrease the amount of
> time needed by your
> body's feedback system by sending more accurate
> commands to muscles, thus
> increasing the efficiency of your anticipatory
> feedforward system in
> predicting the consequences of future movement
> commands (2, 6, 8, 9,). This
> becomes more important in increasingly dynamic
> settings where movement
> occurs too quickly to allow us to rely upon sensory
> feedback to inform our
> responses. For example, electromyographic (EMG)
> studies have shown that, in
> order to permit explosive agonist force, the
> antagonist is not necessarily
> active during highly dynamic movements, but that it
> automatically contracts
> at the end range of motion to prevent joint injury
> and ensure balanced
> tension around the joint (1). The feedforward
> mechanism is not a
> monosynaptic reflex that comes from spinal cord, but
> rather a more complex
> signal that comes from the brain and it plays a
> crucial role in the
> anticipation, preparation, and on-line correction of
> such movements.
>
> While the basic elements of anticipatory feedforward
> postural control are
> innate, they can be enhanced by exercise that
> encourages feedback learning
> (9). It should be emphasized that a well-formulated
> rehabilitation or
> exercise regimen must integrate all components of
> sensorimotor function in
> order to maximize neuromuscular adaptability.
>
> Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer
> Boulder, CO
>
> _____
>
> From: Supertraining@ <mailto:Supertraini
yahoogroups.
> [mailto:Supertraini
yahoogroups.
> On Behalf Of Maria Huntsman
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:33 AM
> To: Supertraining@ <mailto:Supertraini
yahoogroups.
> Subject: [Supertraining] Re: Proprioceptive training
>
>
>
> Chad,
>
> Thank you so much for bringing this point to my
> attention and for doing so
> in a very nice way. Training post injuries is a new
> area for me. I plan to
> share your post with my friend as also the other
> great info I have received
> since asking this question. Since reading this post
> though , I thought to
> contact my friend's pt and see if he will review my
> program and give me
> guidance as to when and if the "proprio?" training
> can be implemented.
>
> My definition of proprioreception training is doing
> things like standing on
> one leg and closing your eyes. I am sure there are
> other things you can do
> with your eyes closed to train this at least I think
> there is I just don't
> know what they are yet. Yes?
>
> My definition of balance training is using things
> like stability balls,
> wobble boards, dura disks etc.. Is that correct?
> They are 2 separate things?
> Or can balance training also mean doing things
> unilaterally on a flat
> surface?
>
> When is it appropriate to incorporate these methods
> of training with a
> person recovering from their injury? Just b/c they
> can weight bear does it
> mean it's safe to ask them to do so on one leg or on
> an unstable surface? Is
> there some quantifiable degree of strength they must
> have to even attempt
> it? I am most interested and would love to hear from
> anyone who can offer
> insight into this aspect of working with post pt
> people.
>
> Thank you again Chad and all for you time
> Maria Huntsman
> Florida, USA
>
> Chad Scheitel <chadscheitel@
> <mailto:chadscheite
> wrote: Maria,
>
> Though I know some people may disagree, but
> "core/balance training", or putting people onto
> unstable surfaces (i.e. a core balance disc), is not
> what I would recommend for someone coming out of
> knee
> surgery. It might do you some good to look at some
> previous discussions on here such as "Stability or
> Control of Instability" and "What triggers a motor
> program--a wrong one?". I mention these two because
> we first need to understand the forces that are put
> on
> the body on an everyday basis and how we teach the
> body to do the things we want it to do. Someone who
> is coming off of surgery typically has extremely
> weak
> muscles: they are in a somewhat contracted state, or
> weak binding state, and this is why they tend to
> have
> a limited range of motion. Because of this the first
> concern needs to be getting these muscles back into
> strong binding states. This is done by moving them
> through the largest ranges of motion possible and
> forcing the body to recruit as many motor units as
> possible without excessively overloading the muscles
> and causing reinjury. Now many will argue that
> "balance/core training" does this exact thing. The
> problem is that this may be an excessive overload
> for
> many coming out of knee sugery where stabilizing
> themselves in space on a hard flat surface is
> typically hard enough for them (see "Stability or
> control of instability"
> this is the motor program that is being taught. When
> doing "core/balance training" the body will not be
> recruiting the motor-units, and thus fibers, of the
> appropriate muscles and in the appropriate order at
> the appropriate times. In other words an improper
> motor program may be being taught which could
> eventually lead to reinjury, or even cause reinjury
> in
> the rehab process, or just teach the body to not be
> as
> effective as it could otherwise be.
>
> Lastly, I would like to dispell the usage of the
> term
> "proprioception" when referring to this kind of
> training. Proprioception is generally defined as the
> ability to determine where a particular body part is
> in space. Because part of the proprioceptive sense
> is
> believed to be regulated by the sensory neurons in
> the
> inner ear many people directly associate it with
> balance (and for good reason, without the
> proprioceptive sense we wouldn't be able to
> "balance"
> at all). However, proprioception is used just as
> effectively, or even more effectively during many
>
=== message truncated ===
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